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Trick commands, "my spray is over there" etc

Discussion in 'Counter-Strike Source Chat' started by Jingle Jangles, Mar 16, 2018.

  1. Jingle Jangles
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    Jingle Jangles Senior Member
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    UPDATE - READ HERE: This issue has now been clarified and resolved (https://hellclan.co.uk/threads/38846/page-3#post-368082). All of the commands described below are considered to be trick commands and disallowed. A new !rule has also been added that reads as follows:
    "15. CTs are not allowed to issue trick commands"
    Find this here https://hellclan.co.uk/motd/jbrules.html
    This rule can also be found in the Jailbreak Guide (and was there before I created this thread).
    I will be adding to the list of trick commands if I see any more or if anyone makes a post with one on this thread.

    Update 22/05/2018: I noticed a lot of misrepresentation of the warnings rule here upon rereading, so I have changed the use of "warning shots" to "warnings" as per what is specified in the rules. Here is the warning rule as it is written:
    4. CTs should give warnings before killing people, except if it’s a rebelling or an escaping T!
    A warning is any repetition or reiteration of a command after it has been issued. For example "go to my spray" is the command, followed by "you should now be at my spray" which is the warning. It is common practise to also give warning fire / warning shots following a verbal warning, to prompt Ts into following the command without having to resort to just killing them straight off. It is being discussed elsewhere as to whether the rule should be changed to "warnings followed by warning shots" however this is not yet a rule.
    More info about the warnings rule here https://hellclan.co.uk/threads/20440/

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Apologies in advance for the length of this post, but it is important for clarity on an important issue in the server (Jailbreak).

    So, many people seem to be confused or unsure as to whether these kinds of commands ("trick commands") are OK or not, and considering the massive impact they have on rounds when used, I thought I would make a thread about it to seek clarity for everyone that it affects.

    A HeLL member has already confirmed to me that "we don't allow trick commands" (a generalisation given in response when asked about the "my spray is over there" command, (see details of command below)) - he also said specifically that this command "is a trick command" (and therefore not allowed). A different HeLL member in the context of this same command said that "you can't kill without a warning unless they rebel" (and I presume therefore also give an explanation for the warnings shots/clarification of command from warden). So to me it seems these are the rules to be followed, and they are not, almost without exception. So, if trick commands like this aren't allowed, and warnings must be given, what should the repercussions for breaking these rules be? If any?

    So here are the trick commands I have seen used:

    The "my spray is over there" command. Warden sprays his spray somewhere, tells the Ts "my spray is over there/here" and delays/waits a significant amount of time. During this delay without any clarification/further command, some Ts understandably go to the spray (often crouching, giving the warden plenty of time to tell them to go back (which they don't)), and as a result, get gunned down, without warnings or redirection or clarification or further command by the warden. In worst instances, and this is common, Ts are behind a door that can only be opened from the outside, in an enclosed area, and in addition to saying "my spray (for example) is outside isolation/outside the front of the door", the door is opened by the warden, and the warden again waits, delays, waits, delays, purposefully waiting for as many Ts as possible to run to the spray (without telling them to go back) to be gunned down, again without warnings. To me, in this command and the others I will mention, many rules are broken as the Ts are attempting to follow commands (so warnings should be given) and also the command being a trick command it is not allowed to be used. It's worth noting that there's nothing wrong with saying "my spray is over there", as long as you don't insert a massive unnecessary pause before the next command and you tell Ts to go back to where they were if they start moving rather that just killing them all without warning. Another variation I've heard on this command is "my spray is under cell stairs, go to the bottom of cell stairs", then killing anyone that goes to the spray under cell stairs rather than the bottom of cell stairs. Why insert the part about your spray? This is surely a trick command that is embedded for no other reason than to kill as many non-rebellers without warning as possible.

    The next one is specific to the airship map. This one perhaps isn't so bad, but rules are still broken every single time I see this command used. The command is "go to the bottom of cell stairs". On airship, there are no cell stairs, the platform that leads Ts down from cells is a ramp, not stairs. So already this is seeming like an invalid command. There are however a set of stairs to the right/ in front of cells, that lead up to the cannon. In this command, many Ts, understandably, go to the cell ramp, rather than the cannon stairs. In this instance, again, without warnings, redirection or clarification by warden (as many obviously don't understand what the warden is attempting to command them to do) the Ts are killed. So, warnings are not given to the Ts that are obviously and genuinely attempting to follow commands without rebelling in any way, thus one rule is broken. The second rule you could debate but as invalid commands (is there even a 'cell stairs'? Highly debatable) are not really commands at all, the command in itself can be seen as a non-command. In this instance if Ts stay where they are they should not be killed. Alternatively this can be seen as a trick command and thus not allowed. Either way it's clear that 1, if not 2 rules are again being broken. I'd add as well here that the most obvious point with regards to this command is just how easy is it to tell Ts "that isn't the stairs that I'm talking about that's the ramp, the stairs are to your right" - it takes about 5 seconds max and saves you butchering a dozen non-rebelling Ts.
    --See pictures below for the aforementioned "cell stairs".
    Update April 2018: people are commenting often that this is not a trick. To clarify, in order to become "cell stairs" or "cell ramp", the object should be linked directly to the cells (no blocks etc in the way) and be obviously the primary route for Ts to take when leaving their cells. Neither of these is the case for the stairs on airship.
    I'd also note that these same people protesting it's not a trick are shining their laser at the cell ramp whilst telling Ts to go to these "cell stairs".

    The third and final command, probably the worst of all (in my opinion), is "crouch/jump if you have a weapon". In this instance, the warden, without telling the Ts, considers their knives as weapons ("that's obvious" you might say, well read on), and when (any/all) of the Ts don't jump or crouch, they are killed, again, without warnings, clarification or explanation. This command is designed, without any doubt, for the sole purpose of killing as many non-rebelling Ts as possible. Why else would you use it? There are several reasons why this is wrong. One reason being because of the obvious similarity to the valid command "crouch/jump if you have a gun". With the latter command being used so often, almost every round, when the trick command is used, it is, fully understandably, confused/mistaken with/for the valid command. The other two reasons being because it is arguably a trick command it is therefore not allowed and not valid to issue, and that warnings (and clarification/explanation), again, are not given when they should be.

    EDIT: Here is the paragraph from the Jailbreak Guide that includes a trick command that I have not mentioned:
    --- """ " No trick commands " Trick commands are considered as any commands issued that can be perceived as misleading or easily misunderstood. For example 'When I say Go which is not now, crouch to my spray... GOat" This can be misunderstood because it contains GO but it is still not the word Go, which can lead to a lot of T's dieing. """ ---
    I would also add to this that wardens should make sure not to say "go" after they issue this command unless they intend for the Ts to follow the command. For example, slipping in "go" like the above, or muttering it amongst some other words and then killing them for not going, would be a trick. I've seen Ts killed both for going and not going when the warden has said the word "go" after issuing this command. Wardens should be careful here not to trick Ts or freekill. Be clear, say the word "go" only once after issuing the command, and say it separately to any other words, not as part of a sentence.

    Update April 2018: I'm adding the following trick commands to the thread: "All Ts go to my spray... to die". Without doubt, when a delay is inserted in this command before saying "to die" or "dies", and the Ts that went there following the initial command are killed, it is a trick command. A less obvious version of this trick is when there is no delay, but this is still a trick when the spray is placed very close to the location of the Ts, as it is intended to encourage as many to get to it as possible before the warden finishes the command with "to die" (to then kill them). Even without the delay before saying "to die", Ts that react quickly to commands have enough time to get to the spray before the "to die" part of the command is issued.

    Update April 2018 (this command is in review, it may be within rules, see https://hellclan.co.uk/threads/31405): more trick commands: "First T to jump dies", "Last T to jump dies", "First/last one to type "me" dies" and "First/last T to jump gets LR" + variations on these commands. Again, definitely a trick command when there is a delay inserted before "dies", as Ts have already, correctly, followed the command before "dies" is even added, and are killed anyway. Ts do not know if the first/last T will get LR (happens often), or will get nothing, or will get to pick a game etc. Because of the number of possibilities of outcome, Ts are tricked regardless of the outcome. New player or regular, no-one knows what the warden is going to decide the command to be (death, LR etc) until after they've been told to jump. This command is still a trick even when there is no delay before "dies" is inserted. This is because the command is quick to follow for everyone as jump is easily accessible to perform. You may argue that "knife the vent to die" is also a trick command by this reasoning. This is not the case, because there are no variations on the command "knife the vent", it only ever follows with "to die".
    Like with other trick commands, there is a hint as to why this is definitely an attempt at tricking Ts (I'm not talking about the fact that it's because it's the same wardens who issue these kinds of commands regularly), and that is because there are multiple, more often used, very similar games, that are not tricks, and are explained before the game begins. For example, Last Reaction, or last T to jump when I shine my lazer dies, jump beforehand to die. When everyone knows how to issue the last reaction game and it is so commonly issued, it becomes suspicious when a warden plays the "last T to jump" game instead, why not play last reaction?

    Update May 2018: another trick, this one involves using the laser only. The warden without saying anything or issuing a command via voice, shines their laser at a location. They do this for some time, waiting for Ts to run to it, and might also shine their laser back and forth between the Ts and the location they want to trick the Ts to go to. After some time has passed of the warden doing this (no voice is used for some time), the Ts that have ran to the laser point are killed. This is similar to the "my spray is on the wall" trick where the warden uses their laser to encourage the Ts to the spray, except in this case no verbal tricks are included, just the laser.

    Update June 2018: new trick, "face your back to your cell". This sounds almost identical to the common command "face the back of your cell", so should not be issued.

    --------------

    Just to clarify, (correct me if I'm wrong) warnings should be given to Ts that aren't actively rebelling and in particular these Ts genuinely attempting to follow commands. Additionally, when the warnings are given, it gives time for the T to ask why he is being warned/shot (the warden should answer) and as a result, stop him/herself from dying from a genuine misunderstanding (there's nothing worse than getting insta-headshotted when you are really trying to follow commands). This is the most obvious rule that is broken (in my experience every time, without exception) when these commands are issued and to me is the most obvious giveaway that the wardens that issue these commands know they are issuing a command with the sole purpose to trick and kill as many non-rebelling Ts as possible. If it wasn't they would just take a second or two to explain themselves fully/properly. For example I have never heard a warden say "crouch if you have a weapon", to then follow it up with "knives count as a weapon so crouch if you have a knife as well", until after (and without warning) they kill the supposedly non-compliant Ts.

    In light of all of the above, it could be argued (and this is where clarification from HeLL member is probably most important) that when a warden CT issues one of these commands, the resulting deaths could be deemed to be freekills due to the command given to be an invalid, disallowed/forbidden command. Even moreso when the disallowed command is not accompanied with warnings. Consequently, it can be argued that, especially if the warden CT is given warning by an admin that suspects a trick command is going to be given or is warned and gives a trick command again, the warden CT in question may be (arguably/hypothetically) slayed and/or swapped and/or at worst, ctbanned. It's important to note here that I am not saying here that this is the case or is fact, or should be done. I'm putting forward a reasonable argument to be clarified appropriately in such a way that admins can act upon. The only thing that I can see currently that an admin can do if he witnesses a trick command and/or without warnings is to say via admin chat that it is not allowed, and nothing more.

    In the very least it can be said that these kind of commands are not designed to further the enjoyment of the round for anybody but the CTs gunning the bewildered Ts down. On top of this, these kind of commands likely discourage new players from returning to the server as these players are the most negatively affected. Who wants to join a server where you spawn just to get shot and killed for no apparent reason? No fun at all.

    Thanks for reading.

    Discussion from anyone and everyone would be great, and a response from a HeLL member would be a massive asset to the server, players and admins (I'm not going to say here which HeLL members told me the rules stated in the third paragraph because I don't want to presume/assume my interpretation is entirely correct until and if they respond to the thread).

    To players: if you can think of a command that you have experienced that could be deemed as a "trick" command that has not been mentioned, please mention it, just don't name/shame anyone.

    Note: I have seen the similar thread on forum addressing this issue but its outdated, the responses don't seem adequate and the age of the thread makes it inappropriate to try and bump it.

    For clarification, below is the stairs on airship incorrectly referred to as the "cell stairs": cannonstairsairship.jpg
    As you can see they do not link directly to the cells, for example like the "cell ramp" does (see below): cellrampairship.jpg

    A few suggestions for what to call the above stairs to avoid using a trick command:
    "the cannon stairs"
    "the stairs leading to the cannon"
    "the stairs to the right of the cells"
    Wardens should also add something like "do not go to the cell ramp".
    If you have followed all of the above, you could then give some warnings to those at the cell ramp (that's the ramp, go to the stairs), then warning shots to Ts who still do not follow the command. Be sure to repeat and clarify why they are being shot, for example "the stairs are to your right, you are at the ramp not the stairs".
     
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    Last edited: Jun 22, 2018
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  2. Waleed
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    Waleed Senior Member
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    I saw some people say the “my spray over there/here” and admins won’t care unless they feel no need to be thappy so i use this trick command as well but i use it only when the maps are T sided and the cts losing the score like 0-5+ but in spyvspy and other ct sided maps or balanced maps i don’t use it.

    And I think a warning should be given for the people who useing those tricks command when the maps are ct sided or balanced. So in my opinion this trick command which it’s not really tricky if you listening to the warden shouls only be used in T sided maps like new summer vipinthemix etc. But a little time must be giving before killing them as no thappy allowed.
     
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  3. Swyifh
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    Swyifh Member

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    I have always found these commands to be cheap and disgusting.
     
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  4. Jan
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    Jan The Experienced
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    They are also unfair to new players.
    --- Double Post Merged, Mar 16, 2018, Original Post Date: Mar 16, 2018 ---
    It would be nice to a rule written in the JB gamemode rules that states that you cts cannot do trick commands or something
     
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  5. Steezus
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    Steezus The Experienced
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    I didn't read all of it because that is very long lol but there is a rule which means CTs cannot kill Ts without warning them first. This means when the "My spray is there" trick is used the CT needs to warn the Ts before killing them.

    4. CTs should give warnings before killing people, except if it’s a rebelling or an escaping T!
     
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  6. Swyifh
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    Swyifh Member

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    Well, the aforementioned breaking of the rules happens quite ofren tbf.
     
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  7. iCeMan!
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    Well you are partially right but saying "my spray is over there" for example isnt really a command, it's just a statement so it cant really be considered as a trick command, although when someone tries to perform this "trick command" he should give hints or warnings that going to the spray is rebelling because it wasnt a command.
    I wouldn't say it shouldnt be allowed because it's kind of fun to see others get tricked but i also think it should be made more clear that it will be considered rebelling.
     
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  8. Steezus
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    Steezus The Experienced
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    I would argue the T is not rebelling by walking over to a spray especially if the CT is pointing at it and talking about it. A warning should be given no?
     
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  9. Swyifh
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    Swyifh Member

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    Yeah, thats literaly what happens sometimes on minecraft. Ts are stacked at the back door, warden sprays his spray on the wall, says All ts my spray is on the brick wall, opens the door and points his laser at it.
     
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  10. PASi
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    PASi Member
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    Imo it's fair if warden repeats the command few times instead of quickly mumbling it.
     
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  11. ici
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    ici The Experienced

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    running dildo issues these every round lol
     
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  12. topbadge
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    topbadge Veteran Member
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    Is there a TL;DR version?
     
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  13. iCeMan!
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    Now that i think about it again its pointless to make these commands, the warden can just play simon says which is exacly the same
     
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  14. Jingle Jangles
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    Jingle Jangles Senior Member
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    Thanks Steezy. I had seen you mention this in game and actually one of the reasons for creating this thread was to clarify this for people.
    --- Double Post Merged, Mar 16, 2018, Original Post Date: Mar 16, 2018 ---
    This is an example of what I'm talking about when I mention the "worst case scenario" version of the command. I've also seen it happen whereby a warden closes the door after killing some Ts that ran out, repeats the trick command and opens the door, again, doing this several times to kill as many as possible.

    Besides breaking rules I mean what's the point? Minecraftz is a great and fun map for Ts to play games on so any good warden should be aiming to keep as many alive as possible to play.
    --- Double Post Merged, Mar 16, 2018 ---
    I can't see how repeating a trick command makes it any clearer or any less of a trick... Explaining it however is fair, yeah. Explaining a command like this would be saying for example, "my spray is over there, don't go to it", or "go to the cell stairs, not the cell ramp, the stairs are to the right of cells" or "crouch if you have a weapon, this includes knives". I don't see anything wrong with these.
    --- Double Post Merged, Mar 16, 2018 ---
    Yeah sorry about that, I couldn't see a way of making the thread complete without the length.

    To summarise: a HeLL member has told me trick commands are not allowed, I'm really just wondering what exactly this means for players and admins. Another HeLL has said on a different occasion that if trick commands are commanded, warning shots should be given to Ts that follow it. Steezy has cleared up the latter of these points.

    Trick commands are like saying "my spray is over there", waiting, pointing laser at spray, opening door to spray for Ts etc. without following up the command. Another is saying "go to cell stairs" on airship. There are no stairs on airship that link directly to the cells. Also "crouch if you have a weapon", a command with no purpose other than to trick Ts into thinking it's the "crouch if you have a gun" command.

    That's pretty much it.
    --- Double Post Merged, Mar 16, 2018 ---
    That's a good example of a game that can reduce the Ts in a fair way (as long as it's fully explained). We could encourage CTs looking for their 'fix' of killing confused Ts to do this game instead :p
     
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  15. Larios
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    Larios Member

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    Like Steezus already said, this kind of "commands" go against not 1, but 2 rules. This shit just ruins rounds and is often used by wardens as a method of winning, since it's way easier to control 15 people instead of 30. So, admins should start warning/punishing people who do such things, that obviously go against the rules. Also, they should probably stop doing it themselves ¯\_ツ_/¯
     
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  16. PsyDaniel
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    PsyDaniel Member

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    When i issue these commands i say my reasons and i warn alot for example : "All T's listen carefully, my spray is on the brick wall, do not go there." or "All T's im gonna kill the stupid people, my spray is on the brick wall *Repeated 3 times*"
     
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  17. Swyifh
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    Swyifh Member

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    Thats not how i remember it.
     
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  18. PsyDaniel
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    PsyDaniel Member

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    I dont even remember you
     
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  19. Swyifh
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    Why would you, i was dead for the rest of the round and didnt have the cuance to rebel.
     
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  20. Larios
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    Ye but unless you specify that they cannot go there, you can't blast them when they do. That violates both the trick command and the warning shot rule. Would be different if you would've warned them not to go there vocally, that way if they go to your spray you can kill them all, since you already warned them and there was no trick in your command.
     
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