For people like @Sarge & @Jacob ™ that try to be funny with their #FreeIsrael just because I have #FreePalestine in my name. I hope this video enlightens you and makes you less ignorant to what's happening. It's out there for us all to see but some people choose to look the other way. I have no problem with people being ignorant, you can be and stay ignorant all you want but don't try to justify the war crimes being committed against the Palestinian people. Nothing justifies the killing of children, bombing of refugee camps and kicking people out for settlers to come and take their home.
Okay, I feel guilty here. Obviously I do not agree with the killing of children, bombing of refugee camps and kicking people out of their own homes. Changing my name to #FreeWales was a bit daft, and un-needed. I wasn't making the point that I felt strongly one way or the other. I'm not educated enough in the topic. I was making the point that overly political topics should probably be kept away from the JB server. There are Israelis and Jewish people that play on the server. I cant imagine its nice for them to log on, and be judged based on what the Israeli government are doing. The way you were talking was not against the Israeli government, but against those as a religion or for their nationality. I am completely against judging anyone based on what their governments are doing. Its really important not to judge the many based on the actions of a few. There are loads of places that political discussion is perfectly fine. But I don't see why JB is the place to have those sorts of discussions, or to make those kinds of points. In no where near the same scale as the world stage, but there are a lot of people in my community that are persecuted, abused, and sometimes even killed. Ive experienced abuse because of it. But I know that JB isn't the type of place to shout about #GayLivesMatter or #TransLivesMatter. All that would do is cause drama and toxicity. I certainly would never shout abuse towards all straight / cis people, because a very small minority of those people are hateful.
I would never have that discussion on JB as I know people get gagged/muted for that stuff. I just had it in my name to show solidarity as I know we have Palestinian people on the server, or I guess used to... I hope everybody and their families are well and safe. --- Double Post Merged, May 19, 2021, Original Post Date: May 19, 2021 --- Also I never said anything about Jewish people, there is a big difference between Jewish people and the Israeli government and the ones supporting it which are called Zionists. I've never seen a Palestinian or any muslim support Israel. BUT... I know hella Jewish people that support Palestine because they see what is being done to them and they have sympathy and heart and I respect them alot. Doesn't that say enough? When their own people are begging it to stop, the religious Jews condemn the actions of the Israeli government.
@Boy that video is really good but yeah I also sent that to a friend and he said it was not available in his country. I have it downloaded tho and I'll upload it here in a min.
TL;DR: being practical is hard. This video is pretty nice for 6 minutes, but note that it swaps the chronological order - Israel retaliated to the rockets fired as a response to the Police riot control in Al-Aqsa Mosque. 3:20-4:20 is actually a decent segment which traces back 'responsibility' and the difficulty of the conflict. Then, it gets similar to John Oliver's video: A common theme that can be found amongst these videos is striving for eye for an eye in casualties and complaining about unfairness, which is a bit childish. Generally, Israeli defense (and offense, but more on that later) from the Hamas and the Islamic Jihad in Gaza is much more expensive than the opposite. If Israel would spend its entire war effort by intercepting missiles, it might look like a movie with the risk of bankruptcy (including the U.S. aid) (estim. of 60K$ per interceptor, when in the last clash around 4300 rockets were launched arbitrarily from Gaza towards civilian areas (unfortunate but interesting fact - including Israeli Arab cities and Israeli Arab neighbors in Jerusalem which suffered from losses too!)). I think that expanding your horizons beyond consuming media via comedy shows helps to see the whole picture, and practical aspects of the conflict. War is never pretty, especially in urban environment, but once you learn about it and the tactics involved, then you might understand that Israel best interest and current M.O is not to use its advantage to destroy Gaza, nor to operate in a 100% defensive matter, but to use its Intelligence advantage to focus its offensive operations (which are much more costly) against verified militants. (targeted assassination against rocket launch site from Gaza. These launch sites are extremely cheap to deploy and supply, as they are firing imprecise rockets against dense urban population. Due to this, without action, they will overwhelm Israel's defense system, which is why we must think about the practical side of things). This is hard to execute as every operation during guerrilla warfare with terror organizations (which, if you read about the history mentioned in the above videos sent in this thread, is one of the reasons Gaza which is under a blockade from Egypt (which it was a part of), and why Jordan doesn't want anything to do with its previously controlled Palestine territories (which had an armed conflict/civil war with Jordan). No country, Jewish or Arab wants to deal with rocket fire from schools (which is verified by credible sources: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-gaza-toll-idUSKBN0GY1DS20140903) because of the tremendous effort of dealing with it without civilian casualties which aren't usually attributed to the actual side that put them in risk. About Sheikh Jarrah - I agree that the people in the video should be condemned. Note that this is currently under the rule of the Supreme Court, and there is evidence for estate ownership for both Arab and Jewish citizens. The court will not rule anything without evidence, has history for rulings for both sides, and surely won't reason its decisions by some religious nationalism based arguments. "According to a 2017 poll by non-profit organization Israel Democracy Institute, the Supreme Court is the only State institution that the majority of both Jewish (57%) and Arab (54%) Israelis have trust in". Note that there is currently a ceasefire between Israel and the Hamas and Islamic Jihad (of course it is less "sexy" to report on, because comedy during wartime has more rating) I personally (as many Israelies) think that illegal (Jewish) settlers are a major problem in our country and peace efforts, and that the current Government is reluctant to respond. This will probably change in the near feature, but pay attention that there are institutions with a lot of power in Israel that can criticize and block some of the Government actions (state Attorney General and state Supreme court, state Comptroller).
Im ngl, i typed hella stuff but my fat finger pressed on a link accidentally and all my text was gone... First of all there is no ceasefire, the bombings might have stopped but its still a fucking nazi germany state over there, pretty soon concentration camps will pop up and the palestinians have to wear something to identify themselves with. Imagine this happened in 1940 and 80 years later we fail to recognise the severity of this and try to sweet talk and justify the actions of an extreme right leader. When sadam hussain did it he got hunt down and executed, when osama bin laden did it he also got hunt down and executed, when hitler did it he got hunt down, these are all big villains in peoples textbooks, so why in the world is netanyahu not seen as one but as someone thats just "protecting its citizens". "Verified militants", Israel literally provided no evidence of Hamas being anywhere near any of the schools, news building, hospitals, pretty much any basic needs building they bombed in a place thats already strucken with poverty and war... Even if they were, the Israeli governmentin my eyes are the terrorists and they definitly are in Palestinians eyes, so if we go by everybodys logic on this topic, u guys are saying hamas was there thats why its okay, so ok then what hamas is doing is also ok then no? Because for them israel is the terrorists, they have to bomb the places where the "verified israeli militants" live right? Where their kids go to school has to be bombed as well because god forbid that israeli militant could be hiding underneath the school. This is just so idiotic it literally boils my blood. Btw, here is a video of the current leader of one of the worlds most powerful countries, that you lot trynna defend... this video is pretty much deleted off the internet...
Pro tip: avoid 'makes you less ignorant', 'idiotic' in a serious conversation Are you trying to change the definition of terrorist to fit your agenda? Because Israel has provided proofs that made the US, EU Union, UK, Japan, Canada, Australia, NZ to recognize the Islamic Jihad as a terror organization, and Hamas too (the military branch of it in the case of UK, NZ, Australia). Egypt and Jordan ban Hamas activities on their land too. And even if you don't think that this countries are democratic enough for you, you can check the Reuters link that I sent you, and many other verifiable news sources, even from left wing/arab/UN sources https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/pres...placement-rockets-second-time-one-its-schools https://www.vox.com/2014/7/17/59121...-rockets-in-schools-but-israel-doesnt-have-to These are much more credible and 'verifiable' from the Erduan/Turkey news propaganda video that looks like one of the parodies that people do on "cut" media videos (btw, the cuts there are from Israel channel 10, a relatively center news channel). Here is a nice article about TRTWorld https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/11/12/how-us-can-send-message-erdogan-free-press/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_Turkey And I don't defend Netanyahu, I don't like him either as the majority of the Israeli Parliment which is currently forming a government without its party, and including an Arab party, for the first time in the history of Israel. The video shows him make some false statements and promises to Israelis (from the Hebrew audio their house was hit (not mentioned in the not so accurate subtitles), so that is why he came with the Israeli media, so you can expect populist statements as from any corrupt politician. Israeli Arabs have full rights and even some specific affirmative action due to socioeconomic status. They aren't being hunted. If you are talking about Palestinian territories, well, they aren't a part of Israel! They ought to take care and manage themselves according to the Oslo accords, and their freedom only increases since then. They have full control of the majority of their land ('A' areas), where the major limitation that is opposed upon them is hurting the Freedom of Movement by checkpoints near Israeli controlled parts (most of them are to Israeli controlled parts, including Jerusalem). The Supreme court ruled multiple times to evacuate Jewish settlements, which was enforced: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amona,_Mateh_Binyamin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migron,_Mateh_Binyamin And every partition solution acknowledges the fact that Palestinians need continuous land (but it is probable that no solution will be applied and we will be stuck in this situation forever).
lmao at u talking about credible and verifiable news sources when u put a video of a military craft filming and possibly bombing from above from an israeli source, im not gonna discuss this with you, its the same as telling north koreans that their supreme leader isnt a god but just a man and that their country aint as great as they make it out to be. If u live in Israel u have to understand that you just like everybody else in that country is getting fed Israeli propaganda and thus your views will differ hella lot to mine. So there is def no point in discussing this further, I think we all clearly saw who the aggressor was and who the opressed were. After years of lies from the Israeli government and decades of the same issues against Palestinians it finally comes to light as how things really are over there, they got caught in so many war crimes, murdered so many people and bombed the fuck out of a little strip of land which they had TOTAL control over for decades via LAND, SEA, AIR, there was no escape for these people... Why is there no issue about that but you definitely like to point out that Hamas is a terrorist organization and I agree with you. But can you for fucking one second also drop your pride and say that Israeli government are the bigger terrorists than Hamas and the Islamic Jihad combined. Imagine in the ottoman empire, muslims jews and christians lived there in harmony, they respected each other and there were no problems, until Israel became a thing, thats when it all went to shit, so lets just look at the facts here and recognise that Israel is actually the problem and not Hamas or the Islamic Jihads, which are groups that came to be after Israel's continuous aggression on the Palestinian people. For decades we have not seen any country step up and defend the Palestinians and you wanna make a big deal out of Hamas, an organisation that doesnt hate Jews, they just want back what got taken away from them, THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES PROTECTING THEMSELVES FFS and I keep hearing Hamas this Hamas that. If Hamas is a terror organisation then we better all stop living cuz we live in a world full of terrorist failing to recognise themselves as terrorists and rather see themselves as the protectors and every brown/muslim rise up gets immediately shut down as islamic jihadists and bombers and terrorists. This is literally sickening and yes i will keep saying this is idiotic, idc about a serious conversation, people dont seem to get it through their thick head. Here is the so called terror organisation Hamas talking about their terrorist agendas... --- Double Post Merged, Jun 5, 2021, Original Post Date: Jun 5, 2021 --- It's literally idiotic, the more I read your posts the more dumb it seems to me. "Israeli Arabs", "If you are talking about Palestinian territories, well, they aren't a part of Israel! They ought to take care and manage themselves according to the Oslo records, and their freedom only increases since then." dude do u even know what's going on for the last couple of decades? Gaza is in complete isolation and blockade from the Israeli government, where is this freedom you're talking about?
Oh I guess I can sleep better now knowing that Hamas isn't targeting me as a Jewish civilian but as an Israeli one (and I didn't ask about their relation to the Jews, but ok, thank you Itchy, very cool!) Currently, the IDF is the only source for strikes videos taken from IDF planes. (Which is considered reputable in the intelligence community, which you are free to read on your time as I can read freely on this era of the Internet where it matters less where were you born, if you have pride in your country, and it matters more if you consume diverse media from liberal countries (not Turkey)) Btw, if you created this thread because you wanted to wanted to argue about Israel's right to exist, you are free to do it! I am just a bit confused as I thought this is about the recent conflict, and your last comment seems more emotional than factual. --- Double Post Merged, Jun 5, 2021, Original Post Date: Jun 5, 2021 --- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel And I also talked about the Palestinian Authority (excluding Gaza) since the Oslo accords (again, NOT the arab citizens of Israel). Gaza is indeed under blockade from both Israel and Egypt. I also believe that I mentioned why.
I don't care if you mention the why lol, how about u mention how fucking wrong it is what Israel is doing and that they indeed also are terrorists instead of beating around the bush. It is definitely as much emotional as it is factual, as a muslim I know how we get looked at wherever we go or are, The fear-mongering that Israel is doing together with what the USA did before them and the hesitation on EU's part, well excuse us muslims for not trusting western societies that have been a major part in the destruction and destabilisation in the Middle-East and pushing their own agendas for political or economic gain. Every news source that has your "liberalism" written all over it has been very biased with their news up until the point where the people were speaking up against them for false reporting. Now they are slowly changing their agenda so they don't get cancelled themselves. "Oh I guess I can sleep better now knowing that Hamas isn't targeting me as a Jewish civilian but as an Israeli one" "I guess I can sleep better knowing the "Israeli Arabs" aren't being targeted as "Palestinian Arabs" anymore but as "soon to be evicted/beaten up Arabs" One idiotic take after another one, hats off to you big lad --- Double Post Merged, Jun 5, 2021, Original Post Date: Jun 5, 2021 --- Being an Israeli Arab doesnt get you jack shit in Israel, just let's them drive on 20% more roads than normal. Still can't buy a house wherever you want or live wherever you want or leave whenever you want. These are all rights that the Israelis have, so why do the Palestinians not get it? Why do they have to go and be "Israeli Arabs" to even be considered to being let a foot out of the country or have clean drink water everyday or be able to send their kids to school. --- Double Post Merged, Jun 5, 2021 --- U want to be factual. Ok let's be factual. The fact of the matter is, Israel is an apartheid state at its peak. Tell me, is this wrong or not wrong in ur eyes?
Did you even read what I sent you about Israeli Arabs? You are accusing me of not being able to assess the situation since I am biased. It seems that your refusal to even look at western media (and Vox, Washington Post, Reuters and Wikipedia are very far from the right wing) might be problematic. I do agree with you that Muslims distrust in the Media is a problem, which in some cases might bias them. Out of all links you chose to ignore, I think it might be important for you to understand who are the two million Israeli Arabs, WHICH ARE NOT the ~2.5m (number under dispute) Palestinians in the west bank, and the control of the Palestinian Authority of area 'A' of the west bank.
Why you skipping the actual fact? Israel is an apartheid state no? It's literally worse to how it was in south-africa and u can definitely compare it to nazi germany's ideas to what they did with the jewish population that was there in germany at the time. If those timezones taught us anything is that we should act sooner rather than later, do we really need 10 million Palestinians dead before the world sees whats going on and starts acting on it? --- Double Post Merged, Jun 5, 2021, Original Post Date: Jun 5, 2021 --- The problem is my dude you are here talking politics and rules and law and "Israeli Arabs" while I'm trying to point out humanitarian rights and the right for people to live and breathe as they choose wherever they fucking come from or identify themselves as. Idc if they are "Israeli Arabs", "Palestinian Arabs" or fucking "Martian Arabs", their label shouldnt matter, they should be allowed to live freely, under no occupation, no threat, no aggression, under their own flag and religion, under whatever they fucking wanna choose themselves, not some shit rules enforced on them by Israeli government that has no fucking concern over the interests of the Palestinians. I fucking hate people that justify horrendous shit and war crimes with the use of politics and different Wikipedia articles on how some fucking war is justified if u look at it this way or that way or by the fucking inches that need to be given to this guy or this guy... just because of an accord that was written up 100 years ago or whatever fucking article you pull up, trying to sweet talk the actions of a militarized state that came to be under illegal occupation and eviction of countless of families and murders of hundreds if not thousands of civilians that had nothing to do with whatever fucking 300 word article you found. So yeah, this does get emotional when people talk nonsensically and make idiotic takes, it gets my blood boiling to see how far we fucking lost humanity and that nobody asks anything about humanitarian rights anymore or the loss of so many lives don't matter because of the fucking Oslo accord. Just stupid and wrong. BTW I'm not taking this out on you my guy, I know that you get fed propaganda, in school, at home, on tv, it's all non stop Israeli propaganda for you guys and you just can't see it from the other side's point of view. That's why I don't blame you for not recognising Israel as a terrorist state, because u live there and for u it's wonderful I'm sure. But for so many millions of people that cannot return to Palestine or for the millions of people stuck in Gaza, no everyday clean water, no "Iron Dome", no police, noone to protect them, under constant assault by the Israeli Police.
Pay attention that you shared the Israeli media more times than me (without counting the IDF aerial video). I am not skipping the question, but I want to make sure that I answer the right one (i.e. that you understand it). I will repeat my answers from previous comments: * Palestinian Arabs which live in the West Bank under area 'A', do not live under apartheid and enjoy a Palestinian Authority with all liberties except for freedom of movement which has suggested solutions (continuous area) under all (declined) partition plans. * Palestinian Arabs which live in the West Bank under area 'B' (small minority) do have some Israeli Military control (which was agreed in Oslo accords) (to protect both Jews and Arabs from clashes due to interleaving territories, some illegal by the Jews, and some are evacuated) and I hope this can be solved like the above. This area and control was agreed upon in the Oslo accords. * Israeli Arabs (citizens!!!) are not under apartheid and have full rights and even some specific affirmative action due to socioeconomic status. * Gaza is under blockade from Egypt and Israel due to the ban of Hamas and the Islamic Jihad which rose after the 2005 withdrawal of settlements/military there. Israel provides most of its necessities (electricity, water, etc.) even under war. I agree that this is far from optimal and my hope is that the people of Gaza will get the leaders that they need to develop the strip. --- Double Post Merged, Jun 5, 2021, Original Post Date: Jun 5, 2021 --- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_casualties_of_war Where did you get that from? Erdogan? War is horrible. Death is unavoidable, and there are warcrimes from both sides, and Israel investigates on its side, and convicts the responsible (although, I agree that there is more work to be done, and so is the many critics of Israel, e.g. the Israeli 'Peace Now', 'B'Tselem', etc.) We don't lack 'Israeli on Israeli' critisism, and some of the people here are much more objective than you think. (the UN organization UNRWA does too, but even this organization has an article condemning Hamas operation from UNRWA schools (which I cited above!).
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